Question Of The Week #3

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#5
Rick Butler said:
If I'm not too much mistaken, it's a pane of glass that allows instructors to see student performance in different views. They can see things like how long students participate in CM, the different utilities they use, and you can correlate that data for analytical purposes. /r
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Yes, it certainly does break down the student performances in multiple ways! It also allows for the average group reporting (if you use groups)! Do you find that it is accessible and easy to navigate through?
 
#6
Bianca Scola said:
Yes, it certainly does break down the student performances in multiple ways! It also allows for the average group reporting (if you use groups)! Do you find that it is accessible and easy to navigate through?
Click to expand...
It's straightforward and clean as an interface. The only thing that that hasn't been so useful to me is the confidence level. I kinda see that as subjective. Maybe after you correlate the data from multiple people can you determine if your "class" feels confident, but on an individual level, differentiating yes/no/kinda can be a bit subjective.

The white rabbit in all of this, though, is that delimiter that would say to a student, "you're ready, go take your test - you'll likely pass". I've seen students hitting in the 80s and 90s and lock up in the testing room, failing the exam, as if they can't remember. Or they've gotten used to the questions and materials that the confidence they build may or may not reflect how they would perform on the live exam.

But that also comes from mindset - the idea of "do you know the material" vs "do you know the answers". Certification isn't about knowing the answers to the questions - it's about knowing the material and having that level of expertise to respond to the types of scenarios that the questions themselves embody, so that will naturally derive the correct answers. We all understand this as instructors.

But do the students know that?

For most students, they just need to "get through the material" or get to that threshold of pass rate in order to complete their course work (particularly in an academic setting). Many students don't have that intrinsic "know the material" mindset that builds real confidence; they're lucky enough to get a passing level of the questions right.

These things are not a fault of the tool at all - but they do come from how the tool is employed in the learning environment.

If all that makes cogent sense...

/r
 
#8
Rick Butler said:
....

The white rabbit in all of this, though, is that delimiter that would say to a student, "you're ready, go take your test - you'll likely pass". I've seen students hitting in the 80s and 90s and lock up in the testing room, failing the exam, as if they can't remember. Or they've gotten used to the questions and materials that the confidence they build may or may not reflect how they would perform on the live exam.

But that also comes from mindset - the idea of "do you know the material" vs "do you know the answers". Certification isn't about knowing the answers to the questions - it's about knowing the material and having that level of expertise to respond to the types of scenarios that the questions themselves embody, so that will naturally derive the correct answers. We all understand this as instructors.

But do the students know that?
...

/r
Click to expand...
CompTIA is not that unfair, like other Vendors now. If you know the Stuff in the Material, and understand the Question, it should be possible to pass. There are some questions, i as non native Speaker still struggle to understand, what the SME wants in the Questions.
Pentest /Cysa Version 1 Exams may be an exception in the Past.

Other Vendors rely on Knowledge out of the Course Material to pass, or to think around the Corner to unterstand the Question.
Or you had read some Document on the Vendor Website where the Example Codelet for the Answer is published. If you did not know that, you're lost.
So it is still like in University.
But again, A+/N+ should be possible to pass, when you know the Material. If you not pass, maybe IT is then not Area to work in.

IMHO.

I.
 
#9
Rick Butler said:
It's straightforward and clean as an interface. The only thing that that hasn't been so useful to me is the confidence level. I kinda see that as subjective. Maybe after you correlate the data from multiple people can you determine if your "class" feels confident, but on an individual level, differentiating yes/no/kinda can be a bit subjective.

The white rabbit in all of this, though, is that delimiter that would say to a student, "you're ready, go take your test - you'll likely pass". I've seen students hitting in the 80s and 90s and lock up in the testing room, failing the exam, as if they can't remember. Or they've gotten used to the questions and materials that the confidence they build may or may not reflect how they would perform on the live exam.

But that also comes from mindset - the idea of "do you know the material" vs "do you know the answers". Certification isn't about knowing the answers to the questions - it's about knowing the material and having that level of expertise to respond to the types of scenarios that the questions themselves embody, so that will naturally derive the correct answers. We all understand this as instructors.

But do the students know that?

For most students, they just need to "get through the material" or get to that threshold of pass rate in order to complete their course work (particularly in an academic setting). Many students don't have that intrinsic "know the material" mindset that builds real confidence; they're lucky enough to get a passing level of the questions right.

These things are not a fault of the tool at all - but they do come from how the tool is employed in the learning environment.

If all that makes cogent sense...

/r
Click to expand...
We are with you Rick! We want all the students participating in the exams to not only be knowledgeable, but to feel confident doing so. Like you said, CertMaster Learn is a wonderful tool to take them through the course and to further engage the student before their actual exam. But, it can encourage to learn and "memorize" in a specific way. We highly recommend, if possible, for the students to also participate on the CertMaster Practice platform. The Practice Platform will provide them "test" assessments in real life scenarios. There is a very very low chance of experiencing repeat questions. The reporting that an instructor sees from CertMaster Practice gives a good gage on how the student will perform on their final exam. It can also provide scope to the students confidence in understanding the material.

The confidence levels are important for the student to look back on their engagement in the course. Helping them define which areas they need to focus on more, as well as areas that motivate their personal goals. The strengths and weaknesses in reporting is an important feature that takes into account how a student answers their practice questions, assessments and PBQS. Ranging from beginner to expert level is an important way to gage the students ability to pass the exam, and helps an instructor cater to the needs of the students!
 
#10
Michael Schmitz said:
CompTIA is not that unfair, like other Vendors now. If you know the Stuff in the Material, and understand the Question, it should be possible to pass. There are some questions, i as non native Speaker still struggle to understand, what the SME wants in the Questions.
Pentest /Cysa Version 1 Exams may be an exception in the Past.

Other Vendors rely on Knowledge out of the Course Material to pass, or to think around the Corner to unterstand the Question.
Or you had read some Document on the Vendor Website where the Example Codelet for the Answer is published. If you did not know that, you're lost.
So it is still like in University.
But again, A+/N+ should be possible to pass, when you know the Material. If you not pass, maybe IT is then not Area to work in.

IMHO.

I.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this feedback Michael! We hope that the CertMaster learn platform breaks down the course material in detail for non native speakers. We always recommend using all of our products in the CertMaster Suite to help a learner reach their full potential.
 
#12
Bianca Scola said:
We are with you Rick! We want all the students participating in the exams to not only be knowledgeable, but to feel confident doing so. Like you said, CertMaster Learn is a wonderful tool to take them through the course and to further engage the student before their actual exam. But, it can encourage to learn and "memorize" in a specific way. We highly recommend, if possible, for the students to also participate on the CertMaster Practice platform. The Practice Platform will provide them "test" assessments in real life scenarios. There is a very very low chance of experiencing repeat questions. The reporting that an instructor sees from CertMaster Practice gives a good gage on how the student will perform on their final exam. It can also provide scope to the students confidence in understanding the material.

The confidence levels are important for the student to look back on their engagement in the course. Helping them define which areas they need to focus on more, as well as areas that motivate their personal goals. The strengths and weaknesses in reporting is an important feature that takes into account how a student answers their practice questions, assessments and PBQS. Ranging from beginner to expert level is an important way to gage the students ability to pass the exam, and helps an instructor cater to the needs of the students!
Click to expand...
With respect to Certmaster Practice (CMP), I have never really liked that it is a separate offering - and I think it's frustrating to students who look at CM Learn and think those questions have the complexity and robustness of the live exam - only to have to get "something else" to take care of the practice quizzing phase. I know CompTIA likes this as an additional product offering - but I personally am not a fan of it being a separate product. Personally, I think having Learn/Lab as a combined product, with Practice not being there creates an illusion of preparedness to the student and makes them wonder "why do I need to buy something else?". But that's another example of the dissonance between education and the business of education, which often doesn't gel together.

I understand the intent of the Confidence Levels, but I often see it as subjective. When I flip a flashcard in Learn, for example, it asks if I got it right, kinda got it right, or didn't at all. With each page I turn (why is this mandatory, can I turn this off if I'm just reading material?) I'm asked what my confidence on the material is. I understand the gist, but as I indicated before, what the student really needs to know is, "when I get to 100% completion", can I reasonably expect that I am prepared for the exam? This is the question from every book, every training aid, including CertMaster. Students need to know this, because they are counting on it (or their institution is), in their certification goals.

Sorry if my contrarian nature is showing a bit too much - I do think CertMaster is a great tool, particularly improved from its initial release (anyone remember how fun that was?). I took the v1 CertMaster CySA+ in CertMaster and at the end, I didn't even remotely feel prepared to sit the exam. In fact, I totally was not. I read four books from various publishers (Sybex/Pearson/MGH), did the course on Cybrary and Udemy (Dion), and went through about 500 questions before I felt like I had a shot. Passed it. Took me forever, but in my evaluation, I didn't find at that time a single resource that prepared me. It was an amalgam of resources. I must have installed and reinstralled Kali about 15 times, and Greenbone about four.

Another question - any word on when CertMaster will have a native screen reader? At present, I have to rely on add-in's for Chrome or something to get audio. While I am not blind or legally sight impaired, I am without my lenses, so I rely a lot on audio readback. It would be very nice of CompTIA incorporated this accessibility into the tool.

/r
 
#13
Michael Schmitz said:
CompTIA is not that unfair, like other Vendors now. If you know the Stuff in the Material, and understand the Question, it should be possible to pass. There are some questions, i as non native Speaker still struggle to understand, what the SME wants in the Questions.
Pentest /Cysa Version 1 Exams may be an exception in the Past.

Other Vendors rely on Knowledge out of the Course Material to pass, or to think around the Corner to unterstand the Question.
Or you had read some Document on the Vendor Website where the Example Codelet for the Answer is published. If you did not know that, you're lost.
So it is still like in University.
But again, A+/N+ should be possible to pass, when you know the Material. If you not pass, maybe IT is then not Area to work in.

IMHO.

I.
Click to expand...
I never intimated that CompTIA is "unfair" in its assessment, Michael. In fact, I think, over the years, they have been very even-keel with respect to testing preparedness. What you say are general statements, which is fine - yes, you have to know the material to pass. You have to understand it beyond a simple knowledge level, but more of an applicable level to pass. Anyone who has been in certification for long enough understands all this.

I don't think it's quite fair, however, to say that someone who struggles with the A+ or Net+ shouldn't be working in IT. In fact, I have a specific person in mind that is really struggling with the memorization inherent to the Network+. He will probably never pass it - after four years of study. But that doesn't mean he isn't knowledgeable or able to work the field. And I find as I get older, certifications don't come as quickly to me. And let's not forget there are a great number of people who suffer from testing anxiety - something that is at the very crux of my earlier statements - building confidence.

I do agree that Academia often lags behind industry in terms of currency in the industry. I see this with my daughter, being taught programming and coding structures that are archaic and have little relevance in today's world, (unless she's being asked to support a legacy system on COBOL/FORTRAN or C (not C++ or C#). Academia often has retired or semi-retired IT professionals in the classrooms who may not be current on their certs and best practices. Lesser for For-Profit Tech Schools, but still, very much a factor.

/r
 
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#14
Rick Butler said:
With respect to Certmaster Practice (CMP), I have never really liked that it is a separate offering - and I think it's frustrating to students who look at CM Learn and think those questions have the complexity and robustness of the live exam - only to have to get "something else" to take care of the practice quizzing phase. I know CompTIA likes this as an additional product offering - but I personally am not a fan of it being a separate product. Personally, I think having Learn/Lab as a combined product, with Practice not being there creates an illusion of preparedness to the student and makes them wonder "why do I need to buy something else?". But that's another example of the dissonance between education and the business of education, which often doesn't gel together.

I understand the intent of the Confidence Levels, but I often see it as subjective. When I flip a flashcard in Learn, for example, it asks if I got it right, kinda got it right, or didn't at all. With each page I turn (why is this mandatory, can I turn this off if I'm just reading material?) I'm asked what my confidence on the material is. I understand the gist, but as I indicated before, what the student really needs to know is, "when I get to 100% completion", can I reasonably expect that I am prepared for the exam? This is the question from every book, every training aid, including CertMaster. Students need to know this, because they are counting on it (or their institution is), in their certification goals.

Sorry if my contrarian nature is showing a bit too much - I do think CertMaster is a great tool, particularly improved from its initial release (anyone remember how fun that was?). I took the v1 CertMaster CySA+ in CertMaster and at the end, I didn't even remotely feel prepared to sit the exam. In fact, I totally was not. I read four books from various publishers (Sybex/Pearson/MGH), did the course on Cybrary and Udemy (Dion), and went through about 500 questions before I felt like I had a shot. Passed it. Took me forever, but in my evaluation, I didn't find at that time a single resource that prepared me. It was an amalgam of resources. I must have installed and reinstralled Kali about 15 times, and Greenbone about four.

Another question - any word on when CertMaster will have a native screen reader? At present, I have to rely on add-in's for Chrome or something to get audio. While I am not blind or legally sight impaired, I am without my lenses, so I rely a lot on audio readback. It would be very nice of CompTIA incorporated this accessibility into the tool.

/r
Click to expand...
Rick, great feedback and information, and hopefully I am following you correctly. What I can say, is that we are constantly finding ways to really reinforce the concepts through the various activities that are within our products, and how they really build the best preparedness for the leaner to take the exam. With the Integrated (Learn+Labs) product, we really have built in more checks and balances with additions such as the Applied and Assisted Labs, and it does become somewhat subjective, but best practices can also really help, especially when teaching a class as well. Would love to discuss in more detail, and also make sure you have taken full advantage of the most up-to-date features and products we have. Happy to send something your way if desired as well, thanks again for all of the great feedback!
 
#15
Rick Butler said:
I never intimated that CompTIA is "unfair" in its assessment, Michael. In fact, I think, over the years, they have been very even-keel with respect to testing preparedness. What you say are general statements, which is fine - yes, you have to know the material to pass. You have to understand it beyond a simple knowledge level, but more of an applicable level to pass. Anyone who has been in certification for long enough understands all this.

I don't think it's quite fair, however, to say that someone who struggles with the A+ or Net+ shouldn't be working in IT. In fact, I have a specific person in mind that is really struggling with the memorization inherent to the Network+. He will probably never pass it - after four years of study. But that doesn't mean he isn't knowledgeable or able to work the field. And I find as I get older, certifications don't come as quickly to me. And let's not forget there are a great number of people who suffer from testing anxiety - something that is at the very crux of my earlier statements - building confidence.

I do agree that Academia often lags behind industry in terms of currency in the industry. I see this with my daughter, being taught programming and coding structures that are archaic and have little relevance in today's world, (unless she's being asked to support a legacy system on COBOL/FORTRAN or C (not C++ or C#). Academia often has retired or semi-retired IT professionals in the classrooms who may not be current on their certs and best practices. Lesser for For-Profit Tech Schools, but still, very much a factor.

/r
Click to expand...
Hello Rick,
ok, you have a good point with Learning Disability. did not think about that. But there are other ways to get recognized Certifications (at least in Germany for A+/N+ Level in Learning an Job). But still. To help people with this Exams, maybe start with easier ones out there then.
I think learning programming does not matter much on the Language (there are some, that are developed for better learning in Schools). And Fortran / Cobol is still a market for Persons knowing to work with that Languages.
If you have the Programming knowledge, you just have to learn the new language. But we are leaving the Topic here.

Michael
 
#16
Jwehrle said:
Rick, great feedback and information, and hopefully I am following you correctly. What I can say, is that we are constantly finding ways to really reinforce the concepts through the various activities that are within our products, and how they really build the best preparedness for the leaner to take the exam. With the Integrated (Learn+Labs) product, we really have built in more checks and balances with additions such as the Applied and Assisted Labs, and it does become somewhat subjective, but best practices can also really help, especially when teaching a class as well. Would love to discuss in more detail, and also make sure you have taken full advantage of the most up-to-date features and products we have. Happy to send something your way if desired as well, thanks again for all of the great feedback!
Click to expand...
Rick, regarding your other question, I had to do a little digging so apologies for the delay. We design our platforms with accessibility in mind, and we do have the ability with CertMaster Learn, for example, to accommodate different screen readers such as NVDA (for Windows, you can find at https://www.nvaccess.org/download/), JAWS or VoiceOver (Mac). Another thing to note that you might not be aware of, the CertMaster Learn platform does allow for up to 250% Zoom, so that could always be an option. Any other questions please let us know.
 
#17
Jwehrle said:
Rick, great feedback and information, and hopefully I am following you correctly. What I can say, is that we are constantly finding ways to really reinforce the concepts through the various activities that are within our products, and how they really build the best preparedness for the leaner to take the exam. With the Integrated (Learn+Labs) product, we really have built in more checks and balances with additions such as the Applied and Assisted Labs, and it does become somewhat subjective, but best practices can also really help, especially when teaching a class as well. Would love to discuss in more detail, and also make sure you have taken full advantage of the most up-to-date features and products we have. Happy to send something your way if desired as well, thanks again for all of the great feedback!
Click to expand...
I'm actually reviewing the Cloud+ Learn/Lab right now - and I went through the Server+ L/L when I did the TTT last year. I do like the flashcards - but I find I am far more verbose in my responses. The games are a nice touch, I think my favorite is Card Sweeper. I hope to walk through the PBQs here in the next day.

/r
 
#18
Jwehrle said:
Rick, regarding your other question, I had to do a little digging so apologies for the delay. We design our platforms with accessibility in mind, and we do have the ability with CertMaster Learn, for example, to accommodate different screen readers such as NVDA (for Windows, you can find at https://www.nvaccess.org/download/), JAWS or VoiceOver (Mac). Another thing to note that you might not be aware of, the CertMaster Learn platform does allow for up to 250% Zoom, so that could always be an option. Any other questions please let us know.
Click to expand...
I will have to try with NVDA and see what that's like; I'm not familiar with it, actually. It might be nice to incorporate if using on mobile devices as well, for those of us who prefer audio over video for reading.
 
#19
Michael Schmitz said:
Hello Rick,
ok, you have a good point with Learning Disability. did not think about that. But there are other ways to get recognized Certifications (at least in Germany for A+/N+ Level in Learning an Job). But still. To help people with this Exams, maybe start with easier ones out there then.
I think learning programming does not matter much on the Language (there are some, that are developed for better learning in Schools). And Fortran / Cobol is still a market for Persons knowing to work with that Languages.
If you have the Programming knowledge, you just have to learn the new language. But we are leaving the Topic here.

Michael
Click to expand...
I would agree that starting off easier, such as ITF+ is a crucial point for anyone in the 0-2 years space that is entering the industry. I've personally witnessed the frustration and irritation when students, fresh out of enrollment, get dropped into Security+, because of scheduling concerns. I know for my college, I had to really push to get pre-req's put in so we could maintain a logical order of growth. I'm glad it's there, but it does create scheduling issues with students, faculty, and facility.

My comments about languages wasn't really that specific - but rather, to illustrate how much of academia falls woefully behind the industry. Whether it's training and certification, proficiencies in programming and such, I can tell you, for example, many universities in the US are still not teaching Python in a meaningful way.

/r
 
#20
Rick Butler said:
I'm actually reviewing the Cloud+ Learn/Lab right now - and I went through the Server+ L/L when I did the TTT last year. I do like the flashcards - but I find I am far more verbose in my responses. The games are a nice touch, I think my favorite is Card Sweeper. I hope to walk through the PBQs here in the next day.

/r
Click to expand...
I like the PBQ, because they can give the Students a better understanding about this type of Questions in the Exam. To small screen, overlaps with the Szenario, select the right choices...

Michael
 
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