Reading vs studying vs hands-on

[Chris Gehringer]

My high school A+ students (15 to 16 years old) are struggling with the pace at which I am covering 220-1001. I have about 105 hours to give demonstrations, lecture, have them take notes, conduct class discussions, watch related videos, talk about current events, and give them quizzes and tests. They are complaining that we don't do nearly enough hands-on and I see they are having a hard time with the pace to get through the 600 page book in 180 days.

I teach in a comprehensive high school (40 minute classes, students have 6 other classes) where the students in my class have an array of abilities (from students with IEPs to those with no tech knowledge to a student who excels at all his classes to others that aren't that interested in technology but want to try for the cert).

Also, these teenagers aren't doing much in the way of reading or studying at home.

Any thoughts to help this struggling teacher?

 

[Rick Butler]

Well, I know of a few instructors, including myself, who have had to deal with the difficulty of trying to crunch a CompTIA cert into an secondary academic term. With 40 mins a day, I don't envy that you just get the kids settled, attendance taken, and the like and boom, out of time. Makes me wonder about the feasibility of offering this stuff in that environment to be perfectly frank.

Also, these teenagers aren't doing much in the way of reading or studying at home.

This is your critical problem right here. Since they are not coming to class prepared to study, they are short-changing themselves.

For discussion sake, let me define a few terms that apply in this learning environment:

• Didactic - Information flowing from the learning environment to the learner, in the form of lecture, video, class discussions and so forth - everything not considered "hands-on". About 66% of any technical course should be didactic learning, so in your case, about 70 hours.
• Structured Lab - Lab exercises guided by an instructor.
• Unstructured Lab - Lab exercises guided by the curriculum (follow along with the book stuff). 33% of the course should be laboratory, either structured or unstructured
• Homework/Outside Work is a general part of any credit calculation - and the one that gets ignored the most by the student. 100% outside, and not part of the delivery calculation, since that's all student-driven.

I'd probably say to the students that I cannot do hands-on if they are not willing to read and study the material at home, so you can dedicate more time that you would spend in didactic to laboratory. You may be able to get to a 50/50 model, but compressing all that into 52.5 hours is aggressive. But put the impetus back on them and say, "more hands on if you all come to class prepared for it".

I would say about 10-15% of your students, at best, would be ready for a cert test at year's end - and these would be the ones actually trying to do the homework.

/r

 

[Chris Gehringer]

That's a hard nut to swallow -- to know that 85 to 90% of the kids who come to class everyday aren't going to make it, aren't going to do the extra work, aren't into the program enough to work hard for it. Makes me question the worthiness of the program and the time I'm expending everyday. Right now the plan is to do Core 1 in a year, and work on Core 2 the following year. I get it -- teenagers, other classes, young minds, etc. I tried to pull my program out of the Perkins funding track (and therefore not be tied to having to select one of the NJ state approved credentials), but our administration denied the request. Maybe I can get ITF+ adding to the approved list. I think a majority of students would enjoy it more.

If I stick with A+, I've got to figure out how to get 33% hands-on. Maybe going with TestOut is better.

1. Do you require students take notes? Mine cannot take notes as fast as I speak. I think if they read the book they would only need to highlight. Big challenge here -- some don't read anything for any class once they go home.
2. Would you mind sharing what kind of homework you give?
3. What list of labs you do for Core 1?

This is all very useful. Thank you.

 

[Jarrel]

For my A+ classes (or any class actually), they do pre-reading prior to class. We discuss in the morning, then they do labs in the afternoon. If time is limited, say we only got 3 hours on a day then I explain while they do each step of the labs.

Core1 labs are mainly assembly and disassembly of PC, mobile devices, networking and printers.
Core2 labs are about operating systems, apps, and security which are done via virtual machines.

We got online CompTIA student resources hence, the students do not need to take notes altho they are encouraged to do so. The lecturers use CompTIA teacher resources.

A+ should be okay with your cohorts. But if the students are struggling with A+, then they may need to start with ITF+ instead.

 

[Rick Butler]

That's a hard nut to swallow -- to know that 85 to 90% of the kids who come to class everyday aren't going to make it, aren't going to do the extra work, aren't into the program enough to work hard for it. Makes me question the worthiness of the program and the time I'm expending everyday.

It's a harsh reality. I see it in post-secondary, where you would think that, with the students being financially vested in their program, that they would try harder. But no - it's kind of the same thing. I had one student tell me one day, "My mom makes me come to school - I just wanna play video games and smoke weed". He got bounced from the program. I had a lot of them get the business end of my boot.

Maybe I can get ITF+ adding to the approved list. I think a majority of students would enjoy it more.

Personally, I think HS students shouldn't even touch A+ until they have passed ITF+.

If I stick with A+, I've got to figure out how to get 33% hands-on. Maybe going with TestOut is better.

The thing that sorta bugs me about solutions like TestOut is that it tends to make for lazy instructors. In the college scene, students will even say, "If everything is in my TestOut, why do I need you and your class that costs thousands? But, I see it an awful lot. If you choose to go to canned curriculum, make sure TestOut doesn't end up displacing you as the teacher.

1. Do you require students take notes? Mine cannot take notes as fast as I speak. I think if they read the book they would only need to highlight. Big challenge here -- some don't read anything for any class once they go home.
2. Would you mind sharing what kind of homework you give?
3. What list of labs you do for Core 1?

This is all very useful. Thank you.

We used to grade students by taking Cornell Notes (a system of notetaking that I actually like). We don't anymore, mostly because we have to expect they are adults and can do for themselves....etc etc etc.

I don't have the homework LP's available, but I'll try to dig something up...something that I think we might build here on CIN.

Labs? Well, a favorite is the identification labs - put a number tag on each piece of hardware and identify it. For further points, provide deeper info on it, such as instead of "processor", it's "An AMD Athlon Opteron with six-cores".

Finally, as I said before, put it more on your students, "Yo, guys, we can do as much of this stuff as you let me - if you want hands on, you gotta come prepared for it". And when they complain about wanting more, tell them that "without homework done, I can't do hands on - y'all ain't ready to learn it.", or something like that.

/r

 

[Diana Eyes]

Hi Chris,
Wow I do not envy you. As for Others also wow I guess I am lucky to have 5 hours with the students each week. My question is how the heck do you do it? and what are your completion rates like (as in the number of students passing)?

I am teaching at Tertiary level in New Zealand and teach two courses Hardware Servicing and Server Administration.
The Hardware Servicing class I teach is "Based on CompTIA A+ Certification". Note the Based on and it is hardware and does not include all of the core knowledge contained in either CompTIA A+ exams.
I have approx. anywhere up to 100 students broken into 5 classes they learn 8 separate subjects over two trimesters (4 subjects over each Trimester), I teach two of those subjects.
17 weeks that include the following
16 x Lectures 2 hours, 1 per week (all students attend the one lecture). I used to use handouts, now I make point of explaining the need to write this down at each critical knowledge point.
15 x 3 hours Practical labs, 1 per week per class. These are all hands on Labs, Multiple styles Team work, solo, group work etc... we look at both SOHO and Enterprise settings.
1 x 3 hour Practical test per class, Service a PC, Power on and Test PC, strip down, clean, replace faulty parts, rebuild, re-test, configure BIOS settings, Install drivers plus client software, connect to network and networked printer
1 x 2 hour per class Multi choice, multiple answer multi choice and a small T/F section theory test consisting of 100 questions based on the hardware

For homework I provide formative assessments in the guise of short multiple choice tests based on each weeks lecture

I also agree with Rick that High School students should not be touching A+ as its supposed to be for people with at least a years experience in industry.
I would think that at the level you are teaching at Chris that the ITF+ Cert is the best way to get students interested in IT and in particular IT certifications through external industry certs, It gives students a taste of multiple pathways into IT and exposes them to a good grounding in IT terminology as well. I suspect though from what you have written you are tied to a school led curriculum

If you would like to know more, get in touch.
PS this is the first time I have actually engaged in a conversation on here. not sure if this is help, I can share more if you need me to

 

[Rick Butler]

The Hardware Servicing class I teach is "Based on CompTIA A+ Certification". Note the Based on and it is hardware and does not include all of the core knowledge contained in either CompTIA A+ exams.

I know a lot of schools that avoid actually making their class 100% match against the CompTIA certs, mostly because updating them every three years can be a challenge, changes may trigger an accreditation event, and it creates the illusion that "if the student passes this course, they would be ready to sit the exam" (which is nonsense, I'm sorry, but any post-secondary course, at best, will take you 50% of the way - the student has significant out-of-class work to get to certification grade). This is why we make the statement "will help the student prepare for the exam".

I also agree with Rick that High School students should not be touching A+ as its supposed to be for people with at least a years experience in industry.
I would think that at the level you are teaching at Chris that the ITF+ Cert is the best way to get students interested in IT and in particular IT certifications through external industry certs, It gives students a taste of multiple pathways into IT and exposes them to a good grounding in IT terminology as well. I suspect though from what you have written you are tied to a school led curriculum

I know it's not an overly popular statement to make, as secondary schools with a vocational focus do try to get students to a certification ready status. But your rank-and-file schools - I just don't see the general drive that makes A+ a viable goal for the secondary student. So, again, if you can get your administration to sign off on ITF+, I think that'd be a better goal. Perhaps as a follow on, you can develop a hybrid goal that goes, perhaps, half deep into the A+ 1101/1102 objectives, which would maybe take them to a 20-30% readiness. That would make for a more realistic class, in my view, for a teenage aspiring IT specialist.

PS this is the first time I have actually engaged in a conversation on here. not sure if this is help, I can share more if you need me to

Well, Diana - we're glad to have you involved out here - and certainly, I hope we hear much more from you. The more people that come to the party with
hors d'oeuvres , the better it gets. Hopefully you're also attending the TTT sessions - would be just as you're having that first cup of coffee, for you.

/r

 

[Diana Eyes]

I know a lot of schools that avoid actually making their class 100% match against the CompTIA certs, mostly because updating them every three years can be a challenge, changes may trigger an accreditation event, and it creates the illusion that "if the student passes this course, they would be ready to sit the exam" (which is nonsense, I'm sorry, but any post-secondary course, at best, will take you 50% of the way - the student has significant out-of-class work to get to certification grade). This is why we make the statement "will help the student prepare for the exam".


I know it's not an overly popular statement to make, as secondary schools with a vocational focus do try to get students to a certification ready status. But your rank-and-file schools - I just don't see the general drive that makes A+ a viable goal for the secondary student. So, again, if you can get your administration to sign off on ITF+, I think that'd be a better goal. Perhaps as a follow on, you can develop a hybrid goal that goes, perhaps, half deep into the A+ 1101/1102 objectives, which would maybe take them to a 20-30% readiness. That would make for a more realistic class, in my view, for a teenage aspiring IT specialist.


Well, Diana - we're glad to have you involved out here - and certainly, I hope we hear much more from you. The more people that come to the party with
hors d'oeuvres , the better it gets. Hopefully you're also attending the TTT sessions - would be just as you're having that first cup of coffee, for you.

/r

Hi Rick, I am laughing to myself as I read the "updating them every three years can be a challenge," 100% agree yet as I type, I am thinking OMG this is the 7th year glup I mean 9 years in a row I am updating this course. I think I have updated it every year since I started teaching it .
Oh and yes been to a few TTT series .
I can say I.T. has come along way since the days of Punch cards and removable Disk platters lol although it seems to have rebounded back to the centralized computing model these days . Oh the days of the IBM 390 Mainframe memories

Chris hang in there as there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, it just seems to keep moving further away the deeper you go

PS: if your upgrading PC's to Windows 11 do not assume check the TPM is actually activated (Run "tpm.msc" to check) and is TPM 2.0 or better (rookie mistake 101)

 

[Jarrel]

my post-script would be different. It'll be:

if you are upgrading PCs to Windows 11, DON'T. ?

 

[Sean Cohmer]

Our program used to exclusively train for the A+ with limited success. We'd enroll 25 students for a 2 year program, and about one per year would attempt and pass the certification. I had the misguided goal of increasing the certification rate for the A+, but found out that the high school context and changing attitudes/motivations for success at the K-12 level have limited the capability of students there. We had more success with the ITF+ last year - 60% pass rate for the first year, but still echoing the sentiments of other instructors -- students need to start shouldering some of the responsibility for learning.

Since I teach somewhere that offers zero prep time for my hands on labs, I'm working on creating containerized docker labs that I embed within a VM environment. I want to be able to offer hands on CTF lab activities for as many performative competencies as possible. It's going to be a massive undertaking but hopefully we see results on the other side.

 

[jasoneckert]

I always find that focusing on practical first and foremost is key to success, especially with weaker students.
This is because focusing on the practical builds confidence as well as encourages students to formulate questions (building interest in the topic material).
Once they have confidence and interest, they'll have no problem reading through the theory themselves. They'll also understand which topics are key, and which ones are secondary and can be deemphasized.

 

[Tess Sluijter]

Personally, I think HS students shouldn't even touch A+ until they have passed ITF+.

Hear hear! Hear hear! < Insert muttered grumbling of agreement >

 

[Rick Butler]

Oh and yes been to a few TTT series .

Nice. Well, the real party is on the Group Chat - feel free to chime in there. There are a few of us who are aspiring comedians.

I can say I.T. has come along way since the days of Punch cards and removable Disk platters lol although it seems to have rebounded back to the centralized computing model these days . Oh the days of the IBM 390 Mainframe memories

There are a few of us who aren't spring chickens. I remember one system I had to support that had a redundant system level failover. The failover relay literally was this gi-normous pull handle. I felt like Igor in Dr. Frankenstein's castle when we flipped the system from "Side-A", to "Side-B". The system had round green displays, so that should give an indicator as to the age. Hard drives the size of a washing machine.

if you are upgrading PCs to Windows 11, DON'T. ?

-- students need to start shouldering some of the responsibility for learning.

We live in a sort of student-entitled world today. But I'll put this away... *pushes soapbox back under the table*.

Since I teach somewhere that offers zero prep time for my hands on labs, I'm working on creating containerized docker labs that I embed within a VM environment. I want to be able to offer hands on CTF lab activities for as many performative competencies as possible. It's going to be a massive undertaking but hopefully we see results on the other side.

I always find that focusing on practical first and foremost is key to success, especially with weaker students.
This is because focusing on the practical builds confidence as well as encourages students to formulate questions (building interest in the topic material).
Once they have confidence and interest, they'll have no problem reading through the theory themselves. They'll also understand which topics are key, and which ones are secondary and can be deemphasized.

One thing I've had to do, more than once is make it up as I go. Sometimes it works and I keep that idea. And sometimes, it turns into a dismal failure.

I also DM D&D sometimes...and I do the same thing there too.

Hear hear! Hear hear! < Insert muttered grumbling of agreement >

Well, in that case, Tess, you get South Park.



Okay, we're done here.

 

[Hod Berman]

Personally, I think HS students shouldn't even touch A+ until they have passed ITF+.

/r

ITF+ has a great list of objectives and topics for A+ students and others that are starting out. The current version is solid. Interested to see how the next version grows in content and acceptance as well.

 

[CjHoff]

Hi all. I teach (3rd year) CT at a regional tech high school in Maine (US), where students come from other rural area HS's. Previously the curriculum was A+ & Net+; A+ for 1st years (10th or 11th), Net+ for 2nd years (11th or 12th). No student in the several years before my arrival ever passed a cert exam. Plenty of factors but basically our students are usually gamers who want to build & play with PCs, but have little interest in the hard work of learning IT. They also are generally very uneducated about IT & computing, despite knowing what the latest CPU or GPU is. To deal with this, I dropped back and require all students to do the ITF+ curriculum -- they've got to learn the foundations in the first year, and most of them do.
I'm pinning certs on the board now, giving the students a taste of both success in the class, and their first IT cert. Safe to say there's a lot in A+ -- more than many people in industry who poo-poo A+ realize -- and it's often too much for HS'ers who mostly want to game and not sit in a study hall. We also have to recognize that many of these students grow up surrounded by computing. Every kid in my class has a smartphone, a school-issued Chromebook or Macbook, and a gaming PC or console (maybe both) at home -- and that's before they walk in the door. They often build their own PCs, some have servers, or even their own 3D printers. Computing does not have the wow factor for them it once did for many of us. But they still need the foundational knowledge. Regards!

 

[Rick Butler]

I'm pinning certs on the board now, giving the students a taste of both success in the class, and their first IT cert.

I think if they get that first one, ITF+, it goes a long way to building confidence. If they crash and burn on A+, they're liable to toss their hands up and not do much more. And that to me is the loss we really want to avoid.

/r

 

[Chris Gehringer]

my post-script would be different. It'll be:

if you are upgrading PCs to Windows 11, DON'T. ?

Why? For a lab exercise, and to see how they work, I say why not!

 

[Chris Gehringer]

I think if they get that first one, ITF+, it goes a long way to building confidence. If they crash and burn on A+, they're liable to toss their hands up and not do much more. And that to me is the loss we really want to avoid.

/r

This is my "today" thought!

 

[Chris Gehringer]

Thank you, all, for the responses. Quite helpful. I had a good day (very rare) and I think with enough encouragement, a nice email home to parents about what we're trying to accomplish, the ITF+ as a requirement, and really forcing and expecting some homework (like CertMaster Practice sections I just assigned), there may be hope.

I have decided that my first of four courses will be a VERY FUN nearly all hands-on class for the widest variety of students aged 14 to 18 that may or may not even have signed up for my class. Looking for ideas for projects.

My second course will be ITF+. The third and fourth years will be prepping for A+ (Core 1, then Core 2). Not all students start my program as freshmen and some even take a year off for other classes. I can't worry about that.

I really appreciate all the feedback and honesty. I really enjoyed reading the responses and probably will be reaching back out to some of you again.

Finally, if you have any really fun IT hands-on projects for my 1st level course (~180 periods of about 40 minutes max), please let me know.

 

[Chris Gehringer]

Hi all. I teach (3rd year) CT at a regional tech high school in Maine (US), where students come from other rural area HS's. Previously the curriculum was A+ & Net+; A+ for 1st years (10th or 11th), Net+ for 2nd years (11th or 12th). No student in the several years before my arrival ever passed a cert exam. Plenty of factors but basically our students are usually gamers who want to build & play with PCs, but have little interest in the hard work of learning IT. They also are generally very uneducated about IT & computing, despite knowing what the latest CPU or GPU is. To deal with this, I dropped back and require all students to do the ITF+ curriculum -- they've got to learn the foundations in the first year, and most of them do.
I'm pinning certs on the board now, giving the students a taste of both success in the class, and their first IT cert. Safe to say there's a lot in A+ -- more than many people in industry who poo-poo A+ realize -- and it's often too much for HS'ers who mostly want to game and not sit in a study hall. We also have to recognize that many of these students grow up surrounded by computing. Every kid in my class has a smartphone, a school-issued Chromebook or Macbook, and a gaming PC or console (maybe both) at home -- and that's before they walk in the door. They often build their own PCs, some have servers, or even their own 3D printers. Computing does not have the wow factor for them it once did for many of us. But they still need the foundational knowledge. Regards!

You hit the nail on the head describing the kids. Only a small percentage of my first-year students have their own PC as many are just here to get their CTE credit out of the way or couldn't get into wood shop. Requiring ITF+ is key. Of course, two years of modified learning for COVID haven't helped my goals.

My first year (out of four) will be a course just for those who have to take me or are just getting started. We'll make it fun. We'll build a PC, take it apart and put it back again. We'll do a little coding (make blockly or something). We'll do 3D printing. We'll explore VR perhaps. We'll do a little PC tech like installing Windows from a USB, some MS Office labs, Typing.com, Google Workspace projects, the M&Ms excel project, graphic design, a short lesson on digital photography (using their phones), Pixlr, build a website with Google Sites, do some music composition, etc.

Those enjoy IT enough can then enroll in my next three classes and we'll get down to business.