Overcoming Certification Apathy

Rick Butler

Well-known member
  • Aug 8, 2019
    1,868
    7
    3,377
    Colorado Springs, CO
    www.intellitec.edu
    So, I wanted to open up conversation this week with respect to the age-old argument regarding the value of certification.

    Now, by virtue of all of us being out here on the CIN, we all value certification. We build our lives around certifying for ourselves as well as teaching others. We continuously step up to the challenge whenever a new certification comes out, we allocate hours of personal study and research so that we can add back credential to our ever-growing list. For many of us, it's a way of life and has served us well as our careers have progressed.

    But, how do we deal with the problem of apathy among those who come to us saying that they want the nice job, being an IT, but they are just unwilling to put in the necessary time to get certification work done? Yes, it is a real commitment. But I just got done looking at a couple of resumes this morning from students that came out of college and I see one who had a nice assortment of certifications, but for some reason he's not employed yet. Meanwhile I see another student who graduated without a single certification, working jobs like throwing pizza and managing inventory in a music shop.

    Because, I hear the excuses from the people that do not have certifications. And if I was to be totally brass tacks about it, the underlying factor is just general laziness. Yes the certifications are challenging, and there is a cost component involved with them but I see that as more of the exception than the rule. Truth be told, there are ways to overcome both of these, if a person wants the bad enough.

    So, I put this question to the Network: how do all of you as teachers, instructors, program developers, and the like deal with this ongoing apathy that comes from students who simply are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually certify? Perhaps, it's just something internal like personal excellence which is not something that is easily taught. Is there something that we have overlooked? Are there techniques and ways to motivate apathetic students and professionals?

    Yes, I recognize that this is a YUGE question with so many potential threads and opinions. But, I think it is a question that we, here on the CIN, have to continuously talk about. Time always change. Certifications and technologies change constantly. But I don't think the challenge ever does. So, I'm very interested in hearing the various opinions about this.

    @Stephen Schneiter - I would like to propose that we do some sort of CIN meetup - if we can swing it, as sort of a think tank, forum discussion - some way we can talk about this, because I think if we can find strategies that work...really work, we only stand to help ourselves as educators.

    Okay, CIN crew...you're up.

    /r
     

    Liz Wannemacher

    VP Marketing @ CompTIA
    Staff member
    Jul 31, 2019
    142
    1
    300
    Chicago, Illinois
    partners.comptia.org
    Hello Rick, I've often been told by HR hiring managers if they have candidates with similar profiles, they go with the certified candidates every time. It goes beyond validating the skills and competencies but signals a willingness for continuous learning, general engagement, and openness to growth. What are ways we can get that story out there?

    Maybe there is some video we can capture, interviews with hiring managers, that would be a compelling resource for the classroom. I also need to go back and review the partner summit session, "Moving the Goal Post", where there were some great suggestions. If there is some resource that we should be thinking about at CompTIA, open to suggestions.

    Best,
    Liz
     
    Hello Rick, I've often been told by HR hiring managers if they have candidates with similar profiles, they go with the certified candidates every time. It goes beyond validating the skills and competencies but signals a willingness for continuous learning, general engagement, and openness to growth. What are ways we can get that story out there?
    Well, I tend to be a pretty "no excuses" kind a guy in this regard; I often get mistook as being more negatively slanted, but I believe the more we can eliminate those enabling excuses in the face of employers, teachers, students, anyone who will downplay the importance of certification, then whatever story we put out there, it will be pure.


    So at the risk of Spoiler Alert, here are the topic highlights from the session you mentioned:

    What are the obstacles to go beyond that 3:1 ratio?

    Hallie Oxley
    • Because the High School was paying for the cert, the 3:1 ratio that Kirk Smallwood indicated was higher, at least for A+ Core 1
    • Core 2 was lower, attributed to end-of-semester/year
    • Students were put into the program by a guidance counselor/parent because THEY thought it would be a good idea, not necessarily the student
      • If they want to be there, they are more invested and more likely to test
    • Set a date using CertMaster learn, so it's regularly in front of the student, with the instructor monitoring
    Lee McWhorter
    • Students are afraid of failure
    Russ Munistiri
    • Dreams are free, but there is a disconnect when it comes time to commit time and energy to put those dreams to action
    • Students need to "buy into IT"
    • Visualize the end goal "pass the cert/program/graduate"
    • The best investment is in yourself
    • Put a date on the calendar;
    • Self discipline; filter distractions
    Kirk Smallwood
    • Using communities, like CIN to motivate each other, ask/answer questions
    Kim Green
    • A note card to write down the expectation that would be returned to the student at the end to show if they achieved their own goal or not
    • A certification test analogy to "having a conversation with another IT professional, emphasizing that you're ready to operate at that level
    • Certifications stack, base knowledge to get to those higher certifications
    Ideas for Exam Success
    • Russ M - Answer the question of why - why is DNS important, why is this objective here
    • Russ M - Read each question twice, pick out the key points in the question, answer what is asked, not what "you would do on the job"
    • Lee M - Be rested, eat before
    • Lee M - Three Step Method
      • 1) Quick run through the whole exam to get to the review question screen, mark any question not obvious to answer.
      • 2) Finish the incompletes, never leave anything blank, back and forth between the review screen and questions
      • 3) Don't get into your head, go with your gut
    Who's Ready to Take an Exam
    • Hallie O - 80% success rate on practice testing, the more questions you see, the better off you are
    • Kim G - Practice tests to help build confidence, take in test mode as an assignment, not a course assessment
    • Kim G - Classes that have performance/project oriented knowledge, building a thing will inspire confidence
    • Kim G - Classes that are more didactic, lab/participation, look for students who are discussing and going beyond, after the lab, who can expand
    • Russ M - Get it done within a week
    • Lee M - If they are actively still reviewing, let them work through that. If they are not, then they shouldn't wait
    Single best piece of advice to offer
    • Hallie O - To a student (high school): Take it seriously; To a teacher: Make certain parents/guardians understand what's required
    • Russ M - To a student: Teach test objectives to someone else. To instructor: Regular communication and constantly motivate
    • Kim G - To a student: As this is a milestone goal, have a study buddy - mutual reinforcement, build support network
    • Lee M - To a student: Acronyms, acronyms. Last thing before testing - walk through the acronyms.
    How to overcome the student funding question
    • Lee M - Shop around. Look for ways to leverage the CompTIA partner benefit or VA benefits for military members
    • Kim G - Think about the end goal (the why) and treat it as an investment in self
    • Hallie O - It's an investment, borrow if needed, because the cert is necessary
     
    If Comp
    Hello Rick, I've often been told by HR hiring managers if they have candidates with similar profiles, they go with the certified candidates every time. It goes beyond validating the skills and competencies but signals a willingness for continuous learning, general engagement, and openness to growth. What are ways we can get that story out there?

    Maybe there is some video we can capture, interviews with hiring managers, that would be a compelling resource for the classroom. I also need to go back and review the partner summit session, "Moving the Goal Post", where there were some great suggestions. If there is some resource that we should be thinking about at CompTIA, open to suggestions.

    Best,
    Liz
    If CompTIA will seek out Hiring Managers for videos {promos} regarding certifications, I think it will translate to 5 x Wins [Students/Potential hires, Employers, Instructors, CompTIA, Partners]
     
    So, I wanted to open up conversation this week with respect to the age-old argument regarding the value of certification.

    Now, by virtue of all of us being out here on the CIN, we all value certification. We build our lives around certifying for ourselves as well as teaching others. We continuously step up to the challenge whenever a new certification comes out, we allocate hours of personal study and research so that we can add back credential to our ever-growing list. For many of us, it's a way of life and has served us well as our careers have progressed.

    But, how do we deal with the problem of apathy among those who come to us saying that they want the nice job, being an IT, but they are just unwilling to put in the necessary time to get certification work done? Yes, it is a real commitment. But I just got done looking at a couple of resumes this morning from students that came out of college and I see one who had a nice assortment of certifications, but for some reason he's not employed yet. Meanwhile I see another student who graduated without a single certification, working jobs like throwing pizza and managing inventory in a music shop.

    Because, I hear the excuses from the people that do not have certifications. And if I was to be totally brass tacks about it, the underlying factor is just general laziness. Yes the certifications are challenging, and there is a cost component involved with them but I see that as more of the exception than the rule. Truth be told, there are ways to overcome both of these, if a person wants the bad enough.

    So, I put this question to the Network: how do all of you as teachers, instructors, program developers, and the like deal with this ongoing apathy that comes from students who simply are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually certify? Perhaps, it's just something internal like personal excellence which is not something that is easily taught. Is there something that we have overlooked? Are there techniques and ways to motivate apathetic students and professionals?

    Yes, I recognize that this is a YUGE question with so many potential threads and opinions. But, I think it is a question that we, here on the CIN, have to continuously talk about. Time always change. Certifications and technologies change constantly. But I don't think the challenge ever does. So, I'm very interested in hearing the various opinions about this.

    @Stephen Schneiter - I would like to propose that we do some sort of CIN meetup - if we can swing it, as sort of a think tank, forum discussion - some way we can talk about this, because I think if we can find strategies that work...really work, we only stand to help ourselves as educators.

    Okay, CIN crew...you're up.

    /r
    Rick,
    Great topic. Thanks for raising it here.
    My view is that when I have taught undergraduates in courses with associated certifications the students start the semester planning to take the exam but then lose interest as the weight of the academic calendar progresses over the following weeks. I proposed surveying students in the Network Academy program at a University where I teach but the plan was shelved due to student's perceived (and demonstrated) stress over switching to distance learning.
    When I have the opportunity to talk to graduates many volunteer that after getting a job they plan to pursue certification. That's in part why I believe 'boot camps'; highly focused shorter duration review training is so important. I don't expect to teach entire curriculum in 5 days but if students put in time (2-3 hours per day) over 21 days and then attend a 4-5 day full day session training; I believe students can succeed.
    Brian
     
    That's in part why I believe 'boot camps'; highly focused shorter duration review training is so important.
    That's the use case for a boot camp. Sadly though, in my experience, I have run into people who have looked at the boot camp as a "get certified quickly" methodology, rather than rehashing already earned certifications and updating skills. I have personally succeeded using five day training, but as you said it requires a lot of additional time put in, so at the end of the day, it's not 40 hours but more like 60 hours, at least how I did it. /r
     

    Tess Sluijter

    Well-known member
    Apr 1, 2020
    377
    1
    539
    the Netherlands
    www.kilala.nl
    how do all of you as teachers, instructors, program developers, and the like deal with this ongoing apathy that comes from students who simply are unwilling to put in the time and effort to actually certify?
    I'm in the luxury position that guidance counselors tackle the biggest part of that for my students.

    But most importantly, if I do have unmotivated students in my class I either A) find a way for them not to distract or disturb the rest of the group or B) find a way to motivate them for the subject matter at hand. In my case, I only teach Linux+ and I am blessed to have students who are all gung-ho about Linux. And for those already familiar with a large part of the objectives, I find additional labs and challenges.

    Most importantly before starting any of the actual class content I reinforce the "WHY?". If students understand why companies/employers want them to be decent at Linux and why understanding Linux can help them achieve their own goals, then things become quite a bit easier.

    You already pointed out, finding the intrinsic motivation is the most important and hard part.

    Sadly though, in my experience, I have run into people who have looked at the boot camp as a "get certified quickly" methodology
    Mind you, that is how they are often marketed as well: just like military boot camp drills you into shape for your role as soldier, the certification boot camp is expected (and marketed) as drilling you to pass the exam, guaranteed, in X days time.
     

    John M. Jones

    Well-known member
    Sep 12, 2020
    11
    11
    For my students, at the beginning of the semester, I have them gather and up on a white board, do a pro's and con's listing, they list everything they can for both pro's and con's and the pro's always win out (you have to screen out the silliness sometimes on both pro/con)... At the end of the semester, I have them do a mind map linking certs to careers... I've seen folks taking the exam after my classes (usually 32 students at a time) go from 2-3 to about 6-8... not a lot, but a win in my book :)

    Really great post, I'm going to deep dive this some more now... :)
     
    For my students, at the beginning of the semester, I have them gather and up on a white board, do a pro's and con's listing, they list everything they can for both pro's and con's and the pro's always win out (you have to screen out the silliness sometimes on both pro/con)... At the end of the semester, I have them do a mind map linking certs to careers... I've seen folks taking the exam after my classes (usually 32 students at a time) go from 2-3 to about 6-8... not a lot, but a win in my book :)

    Really great post, I'm going to deep dive this some more now... :)
    Interesting ideas. And thank you for the props - I think it's a big frustration for all of us educators out there that want to see our students succeed. It's really no fun to go through hours/days/weeks of training and have the students just lose that investment out of fear, apathy, and other buy-in problems.
     
    A clear benefit of certifications is they demonstrate a path that proves a dedication to the only requirement for this field. That is being a lifelong learner. If you are unwilling to measure up to being that lifelong learner, go into a different field of study (say teaching ancient history).
     
    A clear benefit of certifications is they demonstrate a path that proves a dedication to the only requirement for this field. That is being a lifelong learner. If you are unwilling to measure up to being that lifelong learner, go into a different field of study (say teaching ancient history).
    I like that. Because it doesn't matter how many certifications you actually have in the long run. What truly matters is if you're still in the game, willing to stay after it.

    Because no one gives a care about whether I was an MCSE... twenty years ago. What matters is whether I'm still in the game, working on something that matters today. Successes only can carry you so far.

    *picks up book on Azure basics*

    /r